As I wrote before, Thunderbolt now is essentially a certification program for certain USB4 devices and for PCs, there’s no difference currently in practice.
With USB4 version 2.0, the program will be called Thunderbolt 5 but the way I read it, Intel is planning to restrict the certification further on lighter workstations. Read this page
Laptop charging: Thunderbolt™ 4 technology for thin and light notebooks that require up to 100W to charge. Thunderbolt™ 5 technology for laptops that require up to 140W to charge. 140W‒240W is available on some devices.
Seems like a small change, doesn’t it? Wrong. This is a very big change which tests the clout of Intel against the will of Lenovo/Dell/HP. Let me explain. For near two decades now, all business laptops charge over 20V. From 2014 to 2019, the USB C specification only allowed up to 100W by using 20V 5A. This didn’t faze much the big three and they have their proprietary 20V 6.5A (or so) docks. Lenovo even created such a charger last year when PD 3.1 was already out for some time with the appearance of the ThinkPad Z16 and the Z16 Gen 2 this fall still shipped with that (meanwhile the consumer Legion line switched over with the C135 being proprietary last year and the C140 being PD 3.1 this year). At higher wattages they are using proprietary power plugs and combo cables which allows their customers to dock with plugging a single cable and charge at basically any wattage up to like 230W. This means the incentive for PD 3.1 is not really that big.
Now, in 2019 the USB IF raised the wattage but since the connector didn’t change, the amperage needed to stay put and so they raised the voltage. This is the big change. If I am reading correctly and Intel will deny certification unless the manufacturer uses PD 3.1 then the big three needs to augment their laptops and docks to support 28V. But also depending on how strict Intel goes, TB5 certification might require downright abandoning their proprietary means because the USB C specification doesn’t allow proprietary charging protocols over the C connector (yes, all your phone chargers which support Qualcomm QC over C are not specs compliant).
Will they care? Macbooks with plain (not Pro/Max) CPUs also shipped as USB4 because they do not conform to TB4 requirements of dual displays and it doesn’t seem like this made a dent in sales because we are now three generations in and Apple didn’t change the capabilities of their lowest tier CPU. On the PC side, AMD models only ship with USB4 too and who cares?
Does Intel have the clout in 2024 to force laptop manufacturers to the new standard or will they shrug and say they don’t need a Thunderbolt 5 sticker on those laptops then? Stay tuned, this will be interesting.
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Does Intel have the clout in 2024 to force laptop manufacturers to the new standard or will they shrug and say they don’t need a Thunderbolt 5 sticker on those laptops then?
I don’t think Intel’s position is nearly strong enough for that and I don’t think enough consumers care about Thunderbolt (or even know what it means) so sticker or lack of it would make impact on sales.
I work in IT and I can’t for the life of me remember the specs for anything above USB3.0 because of the stupid versioning and version changes. They really need to revise it back to something simple or by renaming is to something that indicates speed and power and dropping versioning all together.
I’m just glad the Dell TB dock my work gave me for my home office works with my wife’s Lenovo allowing us to use the same work space. A few years back and I only had the proprietary connector on the bottom panel.
Side question, Intel and Apple are the only companies who can integrate Thunderbolt controllers directly into their SoCs, am I right?
It would be absolutely amazing if we had everything charging over USB C / thunderbolt for all but the beefy laptops.
240W is enough to handle everything but gaming / workstation rigs. I would love to the governments step in. Imagine if its just normal for any random outlet or desk to always have a 240W USBC charger built into
And FYI I am not even someone who would be a great recipient of this because I usually have top level gaming laptops that have way more power draw. But I would still want everyone else to benefit.
I repair laptop motherboards under microscopes for a living.
Utilizing USB-C form factor ports for charging is literally the worst thing that’s happened to laptops - PC laptops in particular - in as long as I’ve been in the game.
USB-C form factor ports “break” constantly.
I put break in quotes because they do so not by the jack itself breaking, but by tearing themselves out of and off of the board itself.
Almost every PC laptop that has a USB-C port is built with metal bracket around the port to try to prevent the port from wiggling around and then tearing off of the board.
These do not solve the problem.
The REAL problem is that when the port rips off the board, it will almost always take the pads and traces the port is soldered onto with it. If even one of the 24 pin pads or through holes is damaged, that can and more than not often IS it for the motherboard - it’s dead forever and irreparable. This is because the boards have multiple layers of traces to them and because of how close together the pins are with USB-C the pads often disappear directly into vias on the board, which cut down to these different layers. The end result is that you often do not have the option to replace a broken pad or trace with an enameled jumper wire, and so there’s no way to restore full electrical connectivity to all 24 pins in a USB-C jack.
What’s even more frustrating is that EVEN WHEN the break is lucky enough that the port’s pads and traces are left intact (usually indicating a poor factory soldering job where the solder didn’t phase change from a liquid to a solid homogenously), a lot of the time after repairing the jack the port still won’t work. This is because each USB-C / TB3+ port has to be handled by a power delivery (and in the case of TB also a separate data) controller chip - what handshakes with the charger and tells it to switch from 5V to 20V - and in many cases THAT gets fried out when the port breaks lose, wiggles across the now-exposed pads, and dumps power where it doesn’t belong.
In SOME EXCEPTIONALLY rare cases where board schematics, boardviews, and chip specs are available and the chips themselves are made available to purchase those chips can, in theory, be replaced. Problem is that it’s not a guarantee and ultimately it ends up not being cost-effective to the repair shop or the consumer.
And even when it IS possible and it IS achieved, the port will almost certainly break again.
Don’t be fooled into thinking that conforming everything to the same charger will be less environmentally damaging by reducing waste - the environmental expense of replacing a charger is NOTHING compared to the cost of replacing a motherboard.
And when the damage is this bad? It’s almost always more cost effective (environment be damned, says the market) to replace the entire motherboard - CPU and all, as they’re never socketed anymore - OR EVEN THE ENTIRE COMPUTER than it is to repair the OTHERWISE FULLY FUNCTIONAL board.
Barrel tip charger ports CAN break, but it’s VASTLY less frequent, it’s almost always due to an actual accident instead of just normal use, and most importantly they can ALMOST ALWAYS be repaired quickly, easily, and inexpensively.
The USB-C form factor had lofty stated goals, but ultimately from a repair and sustainability perspective, it truly appears to be yet another form of shitty anti-repair, anti-consumer planned obsolescence.
Boo hiss.
The damage doesn’t need to be that hardcore as you can just get pins getting sheared off from dropping a laptop while it’s plugged in. Still needs a port replacement that is a pain in the ass in my experience so not suited as a first hot air project.
My friend got a Framework as soon as it launched, because he was constantly breaking ports on previous laptops. And it’s worked out pretty well for him, since all the ports except for the headphone jack are provided using user-replaceable expansion cards that basically act as port savers. The actual wear on the soldered-in motherboard USB-C ports are much lower.
sounds like a good plan, EU forcing apple to use usb c, lets all move to a single cable. sucks having 20 cables at your desk to see what to plug in.
not that i care if its thunderbolt or not :/
USB type-c is terrible for power delivery. 12-20v power supplies are cheap and the dc barrel plugs are durable. Even if they break it can be replaced. Try soldering a new type-c connector. I would even give separate data and power connectors to mobile phones.
Does Intel have the clout in 2024 to force laptop manufacturers to the new standard
seeing that they essentially have a monopoly… obviously, besides it’s not like manufacturers are against it. Powersupplies are completely uninteresting to consumers.
That was an interesting write up, thanks for the info.
While i do not understand much the difference in protocol, i can quite sure making a DC-DC working with such a wide range input voltage(from 5 to 48v) is not a small feat. And if they limit the input voltage to smaller range(like 28V to 48V only), then we back to “compatible charger” problem again.
They really need to increase the current capacity of usb C. High performance laptop can consume over 10A already. Delivery all that power through such a tiny port like usb C is not a such a good idea tbh. It’s insane to me that they already push 48V through that port already.
I didnt realize anyone used thunderbolt except ancient apple products
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Noob here. Will this force them to get rid of the barrel jack?
European Union is forcing all manufacturers to use USB c port for charging.
First mobile by the end of 2024 and laptops under 100w in 2026.